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User talk:Tsammarco
Welcome! Well met, Tsammarco, and welcome to the Forgotten Realms Wiki! Thank you for your edit to the 3 Dear Tsammarco, I’m Saya222. The talk page of Vhaeraun’s page has told me that two people worked on the page and that you were the other one besides me. First, I need to thank you for editing the page in adding lore, making the page more sightly both in the orderly manner like paragraphs and also in the language section but most importantly in making the page more neutral and thus more informative. The talk page has told me to divide the work between us, may I ask whether you are interested? I’m asking because I like the character and his troupe and while I try to be neutral, but fact is I word the content in more or less favoring manner. I realized it always on the next day or after you edited it. Added to this comes the fact that you know more, for example I really thought Eilistraee just shot Corellon and the arrow was not directed by Lolth. And most importantly your language and writing style are clearly better than mine, I realize that I translate directly from Japanese sometimes and also have yet to learn to order in paragraphs. Please reply to this and thank you again Best Regards Saya222 Saya222 (talk) 11:30, July 18, 2016 (UTC) :Hello, Saya222. :I'd be happy to work with you on the oage about Vhaeraun and his followers. I understand the difficulty to be neutral, since Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are my favourite deities in the Forgotten Realms (Eilistraee means a lot to me, but I also *really* like Vhaeraun, and was very pleased to see them working together in 5e), so there's no problem with that. :I also understand the difficulty with language, as I am a non native speaker too, and I too have troubles with idioms and forms (although translating from Japanese must be surely harder than transalting from Italian). :That said, BadCatMan suggested to split the page in two articles, one for Vhaeraun, and one for his followers. :A Church of Vhaeraun page should include the info that you have added to the deity page (so, composition of the worshipers/clergy, beliefs/dogma, activities, relationships, orders, notable characters). But it should also include lore about rituals, magic items, equipment, centers of worship. The history is mostly the same as that of Vhaeraun himself, but it could use a few adjustments to better emphasize the role of the worshiper themselves. The sections about the Vhaeraunite orders, organizations and the speciality priests should be just brief paragraphs, and redirect to the main pages (in line with the articles that BadCatMan linked). :Vhaeraun's page itself is missing sections about his manifestations, powers, and activities. The worshipers section should be reduced to a small summary, and then provide a link to the Church of Vhaeraun page. We could move the info about the holy symbol and the divine realm to sections on their own (the one about the realm should probably be split in subsections about the Great Wheel, World Tree and World Axis cosmologies, to avoid confusion. The 5e, and current cosmology, is a slightly altered version of the Great Wheel). :I don't know what books you have access to (I guess that Lords of Darkness, Skullport and Faiths and Pantheons are among them), but Demihuman Deities and The Drow of the Underdark (both 2e) include a much more complete writeup of the deity and his church, so they should also be mined for lore. :Again, I'd be happy to work with you. :Best regards, :Tommaso :PS: I think that we should move the conversation to the Vhaeraun Talk Page (in fact, I'll copy-paste all of this there)--Tsammarco (talk) 13:55, July 18, 2016 (UTC) Asking for help Dear Tsammarco, here is Saya222 again. First, thank you for looking after the Vhaeraun page and correcting mistakes. I discovered, that turning the Vhaeraun article into a feature article is up to debate. The page has a plethora of problems though. One of those is apparently the usage of "here" and "this question" in the notes. (please read here for what exactly is the problem with it) I love your writing style, which is why would love to see those notes kept as much in their current form as they are. May I ask you to correct the problem? Please tell me, whether it is possible for you otherwise I will try my best. Best Regards and thank you again Saya222 Saya222 (talk) 19:46, May 14, 2018 (UTC) Done. Best regards, Tsammarco (talk) 20:59, May 14, 2018 (UTC) :Thank you very much. :Best Regards :Saya222 (talk) 04:46, May 15, 2018 (UTC) Slack Greetings! I have been empowered to invite you to the Forgotten Realms Wiki Slack community, an informal chat group of FRW admins and regular editors. If you are interested, please fill out https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfoVCqUNSPCKTp77IxhwMDyIQ4UGVoB1AP0MM15agNUZsU94Q/viewform and leave your email address so that High Imperceptor Admin Fw190a8 can send you an invite. Your email address will not be shared with anyone except Slack. There are no fabulous benefits for joining, and certainly no penalties for declining, we just talk now and then. Hope to see you soon! :) —Moviesign (talk) 14:38, July 6, 2018 (UTC) ::Thanks for the heads-up!--Tsammarco (talk) 01:15, July 8, 2018 (UTC) What I plan next Hello Tsammarco, here's Saya222. Before my next edit turns into a minor edit war, I'd love to report beforehand what I intend to do next. I intend to fill some info on the Demon Weave debacle, write short parts about each of the drow's faiths and link them to each church, some stuff about the Homeland-section about the drow, and at last there'll be some tidbits about the drow. To prevent something like today, I intended to put up a request for copy-edit once I'm finished with editing the page. May I first write everything I intend to write down and then request you to copy-edit the drow-page? After all, your English is decidedly better than mine. This way, we might prevent something like this bizarre small edit after small edit-war of ours. Best regards Saya222 (talk) 18:57, October 8, 2018 (UTC) :Sure, I will copy-edit the page once you're done, but it will take me a while, given the size of the article. However, I will still check and eventually edit if I have doubts regarding some info. :I'd also appreciate it if I could write the blurb about the faith of Eilistraee once you get to that section. :For the Demon Weave, you might find this lore by Ed Greenwood useful: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=1#462346 It provides a lot of insight into the whole debacle.--Tsammarco (talk) 19:39, October 8, 2018 (UTC) ::Hello Tsammarco, ::first, thank you for the quick reply. Second, thank you for the link. I'll probably use it once I start re-editing in the Dark Seldarine-article. Third, thank you for your offer for the copy-edit. ::About the edits about the churches, I intend write in the following way. First, the information-situation, second, the goal and third, the general localization with a "main article"-link towards the proper page. Regarding the church of Eilistraee, I've got the following or similar in mind. ::As a general rule, the term "Eilistraee" was not one the drow were familiar with. It was the name of their deity of song. Those who knew about her thought of her as some kind of surface elf deity who prepared to drive the drow into extinction. They were wrong as that faith's goal was to make the drow live on the surface in peace with other races. Due to the nature of their goal, the faith was practically non-existent in the Underdark and were mainly on the surface. ::If you want to know where I've got the info from, please ask me. ::Best regards and again thank you ::19:57, October 8, 2018 (UTC) :::I was thinking more of something along the lines of: :::The church of Eilistraee, followers of the goddess of beauty, song, and freedom, strove to free the drow from Lolth's web and build a place for their people on the surface world. They reached to the drow in the Underdark, while on the surface they offered help to the needy and nurtured arts, working to build peaceful relationships with the other races. Most drow weren't aware of Eilistraee, as the matron mothers suppressed all records about her, and what little information existed painted her as a surface elf deity aiming to drive the drow into extinction. Due to the nature of their goal, except when performing redemption missions, the faith was mainly active on the surface and had little presence in the Underdark. :::In short, putting emphasis on what the faith is about, rather than most drow not being aware of it. ::: :::Best regards, :::--Tsammarco (talk) 20:30, October 8, 2018 (UTC) ::::Hello Tsammarco, ::::it's done. At least, I can not add anything substantial to the page anymore. When you see me making edits to that page, it'll be about adding quotes from novels or some images. ::::Best regards ::::Saya222 (talk) 11:19, October 20, 2018 (UTC) :::::Thanks for the note. I'll re-start the copy edit as soon as I can :::::Best regards :::::--Tsammarco (talk) 13:29, October 20, 2018 (UTC) A Request Hello Tsammarco, I wrote the reasons why changing the drow was such a big deal and Eilistraee's souls were not capable of entering Arvandor. I did this in the Church of Vhaeraun, Dark Seldarine, Drow, and Lolth pages. May I ask you to rewrite the section in the drow-page to give it uniformity in language? Best regards Saya222 (talk) 08:09, December 22, 2018 (UTC) :Hello, Saya222 :Eilistraee didn't gamble the souls of her followers, the fate of the drow in general was at stake, as the game, in theory, would have determined which deity would have survived. The part that you added was merely the angels' opinion on what was worth saving, not Eilistraee's goal. In fact, the angels even say really disturbing things, like that Eilistraee had exhausted her purpose, because "the willing were saved, the unwilling were cast down". The books don't mention Eilistraee acknowledging to have lost, and she never would have abandoned (the thing about the unwilling being cast down defeats the very premise of her character). : : :There's also the fact that the spell wasn't meant to transform anyone, its purpose was severing the link between the faerzress and the drow. The transformation of a number of Eilistraee's followers was some kind of side-effect. And I mean, not even all of her followers were transformed...--Tsammarco (talk) 13:09, December 22, 2018 (UTC) ::Hello Tsammarco, ::thank you for the reply. The entire matter is cosistently called "gamble" or "wager" with "winner takes all". When the winner, Lolth, is clear she was entitled to simply grab Eilistraee's followers, which she couldn't because they were Corellon's by then. So this is a gamble, if the object of gambling was the "fate of the drow as a race", it doesn't change it to be a gamble because the determining factor is a game. ::About the angels, these aren't some random solars and what they provide is not an opinion but an explanation of what was going on the entire time. They say that Eilistraee's death was part of the plan. On the question that the rest of the drow were condemned to eternal servitude to Lolth, they say that it was a necessary sacrifice just like Qilué's death and that the game, meaning the wager between Lolth and Eilistraee, would have been lost if this was not done. Now, saying that one can't win by herself is an admittance that the adversary is superior to one. ::To the matter with the dark elves, drow are merely dark elves with faezress-connection, taking that away from them naturally turns them into dark elves. About not everyone being transformed, I think the original idea as shown in the books was just to turn every Eilistraeen into dark elves and that was simply retconned in 5e. ::Saya222 (talk) 16:47, December 22, 2018 (UTC) :::The thing is, the premise of the game, at the very beginning, was that the participants would gamble themselves, therefore determining the "fate of the drow" by deletion of the competition (winner takes all). But the followers themselves can't be gambled, simply because they still don't belong to the goddesses. When a mortal's alive, he still can decide to worship whoever, and go to their realm instead. Yes, Lolth tries to grab Eilistraee's pieces, but, ultimately, the choice still belongs to the mortals. That's how faith works in the Realm, and it has always worked like that. Followers' faith takes precedence over whatever machination (to the point that the existence of the deities needs to be sustained by that faith). There's also the fact that, if Eilistraee had actually gambled her followers, then they would belong to Lolth, no matter their race (making this whole dark elf thing pointless as a cop out plan). Moreover, the game was originally between Lolth and Eilistraee, so it's clear that "all drow being gambled" is due to the fact that one of them would be gone (since there was a large number of drow that wasn't follower of any, and couldn't part of the prize). :::The servants of Corellon don't share the view of Eilistraee. Qilué's death wasn't planned, nor was Eilistraee: there's a whole scene in which they try to avoid that, but they can't. It's extremely evident that there was no sacrifice, that's just the spin that the solars tried to put on it. In fact, they even go on saying that they consider Eilistraee's purpose exhausted, because changing the race of a few was their grand plan--not an extreme measure--and the banishment of most "the necessary sacrifice", for whatever reason. Again, this whole matter defeats the very premise of Eilistraee's character. Eilistraee never gave up or conceded, she fought till the end. :::That's without mentioning that, yes, GHotR stated that the game was real, but in the novels it was very, very obviously a huge metaphor--both because there are scenes that make literally no logical sense, if we assume that it was real, and because the idea it's, quite frankly, ludicrous. No one with half a brain would ever accept to play by Lolth's rules, especially when they're in a good position (like all the Dark Seldarine were after the Silence). :::The drow aren't merely dark elves connected to faerzress, there's also Corellon's curse that changed their race. Besides, in the novels themselves it is stated that the transformed elves are in the hundreds, which is a whole order of magnitude below any lesser deity's followers base--Tsammarco (talk) 16:57, December 22, 2018 (UTC) ::::Hello Tsammarco, ::::thank you as always for your quick responses. Now, to your four points. First, afterlife in Toril is quite a complicated thing and the degree of choice that the mortals have is actually not that high. For example, a human who gives offerings to Diancastra gives Mask a superior claim on his or her soul than the former has over it because that one is the giants' trickster deity while the latter is the humans' trickster deity. Winning a gamble would give a Lolth a claim on Eilistraee's followers' souls whether the claim is higher than that of other deities' is open for debate and is probably nowhere explained because divine nature is kept quite murky. I assume it is kept murky to give DMs freedom. ::::Second, I wouldn't be so sure what is planned and what is not. First, the solars have no reason to claim anything outside of the truth and solars, or the entire category of aasimons, don't lie. Second, Eilistraee's last actions surprised Lolth due to its levels of subterfuge and trickery. Sacrificing herself while making it look like the rather pathetic scene which we read about, especially if it's solars making the claims, sounds quite true. ::::Third, when describing gods in person in novels, the stories are almost never completely logical at least to my . As for the idiocy of accepting Lolth's proposal, it doesn't matter whether it was or wasn't stupid for Eilistraee accepted it. ::::Fourth, the drow are merely dark elves with faerzress-connection. The novels reveal the nature of Corellon's curse that changed the dark elves to drow, connecting the dark elves to faerzress through elven high magic that channeled Corellon's power. ::::Best regards ::::Saya222 (talk) 20:37, December 22, 2018 (UTC) :::::Where's racial priority stated, I didn't remember it. In any case, it has never been the case that deities could take the souls of mortals who don't align with them, or trade them as items. Mortals are given choice in the Realms (unless they're faithless or false); the deities depend on mortals choosing them. Even for Zaknafein, who was sacrificed to Lolth, she couldn't take his soul (as confirmed by RAS, and by Lolth herself). Once again, though, I made several other points as for why the gamble wasn't of the followers, but of the deities themselves, and even if it was, the transformation wouldn't have solved anythning, because the souls of the followers would have been gambled, no matter which race. So, once again, the transformation as a cop-out is very far fetched. :::::Angels don't like to lie, but they can. There are parts of what the solars say that are obviously lies, such as the one in which they said all the willing had been saved, while the unwilling had been cast down, and therefore Eilistraee had no purpose. This statement is indeed a lie, because it assumes that all the drow trapped within the Lolthite society at that time were unwilling to embrace a non-evil life, including children and future generations. That's false, because drow have free will; Eilistraee losing purpose is false because Eilistraee strongly believes that all drow can be freed, so she would have never been like "oh, my work's done, I can call it a day". Lolth was surprised by the trickery in that Eilistraee tried to turn Halisstra against her, not that there was some kind of masked sacrifice. It was represented in the chess board, and it was shown through Eilistraee indeed working to save Qilué and Halisstra, even more so because that would have allowed Qilué to kill Wendonai (trapped in the sword), and Halisstra to have a chance against Lolth. Once again, in the book there's no trace of sacrifice whatsoever, only Eilistraee that keeps going till the end. :::::Now, while the angels *did* lie, as for why they would, well, I have a hypothesis--but it's just my thought: they are servants of Corellon, they may be spewing what he told them about the events (so they wouldn't even be lying, just told what was said to them). Corellon has a very narrow view of the drow, he certainly doesn't believe in the possibility to redeem them all (in fact, he never raises a finger to help his daughter--never--and their relationship is strained). To him, the few that were transformed may have already been a matter of all that were "willing/unwilling to be redeemed". Now, as for why he would lie to the solars about what happened to Eilistraee, it could be that he actually saw it as a sacrifice, or wanted her to be seen in a more positive light, or that maybe he had seen that his daughter had survived in some way (she was slain on the material plane; no outisder can be really killed there, and her realm countinued existing) and wanted to protect her by hiding the fact to everyone. Only ideas, but are a very possible motivation for lying. :::::There's a matter of basic logic. For example, Selvetarm fighting and dying in the Demonweb, and at the same time being alive at the table after he was killed (not mention being in 2 places at the same time), and starting to disappear only after the move representing the fight had been made on the chessboard (the symbolism of a metaphor). Since I doubt that the author was going for some Schroedinger's cat shenaningans, the game was clearly intended as a metaphor (in addition, if the game wasn't a metaphor, all the events in the novel would be 100% pointless--the game would be the deciding factor anyway. The author clearly wasn't going for this). :::::The drow were indeed connected to the faerzress by the Descent (according to these novels--and only to these novels, btw), but their race and appearance was specifically changed by Corellon. That's stated in multiple sources.--Tsammarco (talk) 21:28, December 22, 2018 (UTC) ::::::Hello Tsammarco, ::::::the racial priority is explained in Crucible. It's quite a good novel that I can recommend. Why Zakneifin didn't end up as a Faithless or False was never explained, which I find quite unfortunate. About your other points like the object of gambling being only drow, no idea why this the case, I mean the racial diversity on both sides are quite something for racial deities, still only drow are present on the board. I think this is just an oversight on Mrs. Smedman's side. When Eilistraee died, the first thing Lolth did was to trying ensnare Eilistraee's follwers in her web, something that was only prevented through Corellon's itervention. Again, Lolth had an ownership right for them, at least she thought that way. Regarding the trasformation being a cop-out, it's the only reason why the souls of the dark elves are allowed into Arvandor. The agels claim somedrow were changed, so it's their time to enter Arvandor. ::::::About the angels, Cavatina asks them about the souls who would be condemned to an evil lifestyle forever, which would also include their descendants. The angles shrugged that off as a necessary sacrifice. Drow have indeed free will, most of them use it to choose evil over good and carry the consequences as free will demands it. When Eilistraee entererd Qilué's body, she needed to hide her eyes' partial golden coloration from Lolth. I think Mrs. Smedman wanted to hint that Eilistraee and Corellon were in league with each other after the solars' reveal. I reread the trilogy this year and these novels aren't based on exhaustive research, I think the author really thought that Corellon's favored color is gold, well you can excuse it for that is information gained from a web enhancement. Regarding Eilistraee's trying to save Halisstra, I mean, Eilistraee esentially said to Halisstra "I give you my support when you kill somebody I don't like.", which is actually quite a cruel thing to say and if her goal was to help Halistra, frontloading the benefits would have been a better way. "Saving" Halisstra being part of some bigger plan makes more sense, it's done in a too stupid way. Regarding Qilué, Qilué was where she was because Eilistraee wanted her to sacrifice herself to get rid of Wendonai, as far as these two were concerned, her death was a sealed thing. It was just Laeral who understandably didn't want to follow through with the original plan because it involved killing her sister. Regarding Eilistraee's sacrifice, was the order of events really Q'arlynd's ritual=>Eilistraee's death? I know that the novel first talks about the ritual's effect, but there's no clock or something and you have this priestess Leliana who changed into a dark elf right after Eilistraee's death and not before, meaning the ritual's effect and the the death occured almost simultaneously. ::::::Your hypothesis would presume that the angels and Corellon have very low standards of ethics and moral and I still don't see the point in telling it Cavatina. That woman is dead, she's going to lose her memories anyway on becoming a petitioner, telling her simply the truth would be much better both from moral and ethics-viewpoint. Regarding the outsiders's death, that no oursider can be killed on the Material Plane is simply wrong. That rule applies for example for demons, but for example not for demodands. Gods can be killed on the Material Plane, the rule that governs their death is that they need to be killed by another god to stay dead, killing with the Crescent Blade as it happened to Selvetarm or Eilistraee is an exception to this rule. ::::::As I said, novels where deities appear in person are rarely logical, but the Selvetarm thing can be explained for example in the following way. The creatures that were playing the game were not the real deal but avatars. Like with Moander, avatars survive the death of the main body and when an avatar remains, the deity has a shot at revival. Selvetarm as a demigod has only one of those and like Eilistraee he is most likely a unique deity of Toril. After Cavatina killed the main body, Lolth killed the avatar and Selvetarm lost all his chances for revival, until the Second Sundering that is. ::::::That drow had some relationship with the Underdark-radiation is established in some way since The Drow of the Underdark, their powers fluctuate with the concentration of it, Underdark makes clear that drowcraft items, items that work only in faerzress and earth nodes, can only be created by drow. So, increasing this connection and making it responsible for more is in my opinion not that much of a problem. It also explains the mechanics and essential differences between drow and dark elves. ::::::Best regards ::::::Saya222 (talk) 06:20, December 23, 2018 (UTC) :::::::Thanks for the source about the racial priority. :::::::Re: possibility to gamble followers. I know, and said too, that Lolth tried to grab Eilistraee's followers, but I also explained why Eilistraee couldn't gamble her followers--the gamble was about the deities themselves, it's said as much in the very premise, and the fate of the drow would come as a consequence (you know, with one side being gone). Besides, no deity could have gambled the fate of the drow in the literal sense, for, when the game started, there were many, *many* drow who weren't followers of any of the two--as I said, it's clear that the fate of the drow would have determined by deletion of the competition. So, Lolth had no ownership right to anything, because it simply doesn't work that way, even if she thought so (which would be very in-character, btw). Also, once again, going with your hypothesis, even if Eilistraee had gambled her followers, then no matter which spell Q'arlynd casted, Lolth would still have the right to them, so the transformation could have never been a cop out (oh, about the angels saying "it's time to return to Arvandor", that happened because Smedman thought that Eilistraee's realm was still in Svartalfheim, not in Arvandor, for some reason. Yet another of her countless mistakes. And in no way this would make it a cop out, because if they had been gambled, Lolth would still have claim on their souls, no matter their skin color or ties to faerzress). :::::::Re: Whether Eilistraee surrendered or not. Qilué was going to kill Wendonai with her silver fire, true, and she was very likely going to die. However 1)Eilistraee loves Qilué, and surely wouldn't have her die if there were another alternative. If she had wanted Qilué to die for her goal, she would have immediately unfreezed her and gone ahead with the plan while Laeral was away and Halisstra hadn't arrived yet. 2)Eilistraee still worked to protect Qilué from Halisstra, Qilué's death had nothing to do with Q'arlynd's spell, it was an entirely different matter, she was going to sacrifice herself for a different purpose. In addition, Eilistraee doesn't just ask Halisstra to kill Lolth, she also offers Halisstra a place among her people, forgiveness, and relief from Lolth's torture (and, even setting that aside, it is shown that Eilistraee hasn't given up, she's still working against Lolth). Finally, there's the whole scene in the chess board where it is clearly shown that Eilistraee still goes on to fight until the end, no sacrifice on her part. The scene is very clearly set to make it a defeat, not a sacrifice of some kind. Re: Eilistraee and Corellon, if Corellon had been working with his daughter, you'd think that he would have done something, *anything* to help her, and earlier, and that he would have aimed to actually support his daughter in her goal (because this transformation never was her goal), rather than setting for a bunch of drow turning brown. Also, IIRC, Eilistraee's eyes turn partial gold when she takes Vhaeraun's portfolio (and about Smedman's possible mistake on Corellon's favorite color--man, the whole series is so full of mistakes (and distorted and warped portrayals of Eilistraee&followers), and even plot holes, that you have to wonder WTH the editor and author were thinking. She couldn't even get the very basic things, like rituals or Vhaeraun's mask, right). :::::::Re: angels lying. The angels still lied, even if they answered Cavatina's question. When they said that all the possible willing had been saved, and the unwilling had been cast down, and that Eilistraee had no purose, they lied, and I've already explained why that was a lie. I don't know why they lied, they may also have simply said what they believed or were told, but it's clear that they did. My assumption that Corellon was fine with how things turned out is in line with his attitude towards the drow (once again, given that he cursed everyone, did nothing to make up for it, did nothing to help his own daughter, and their relationship is strained, if friendly, because of this division). Re: Corellon lying to hide Eilistraee's survival. A god can't die on the prime. In Faiths and Avatars, it's very clearly said that a deity must be killed in their realm, and by another god. Some artifacts can go around this, but the Crescent Blade was clearly no longer the artifact that Eilistraee had made. It had been shattered and then abandoned. Wendonai simply remade it into a vessel for himself. Selvetarm was killed in his plane--and he's a demigod, they can be killed by mortals (again, Faiths&Avatars). Eilistraee, on the other hand, had the premises of her survival, and Ed Greenwood--who created Eilistraee, the drow gods, and the rules of divinity in the Realms--based his idea of Eilistraee's survival on that. So, there might indeed be the chance of Corellon trying to hide his wounded daughter from any threats. As for the reason to lie to Cavatina? Cavatina should have already lost her memories when the angels talk to her (since dead souls immediately lose them, and the memories end up in a "memory cache" or whatever in the Astral Plane), which means that Smedman completely ignored that dead souls lose memories, and Cavatina would have remembered (besides, we see other cases of petitioner retaining memories in 3e, like Ryld, leading me to think that the authors had decided to override it at some point). Also, as I said, the angels may very well have not lied, and just said what Corellon told them, for the reasons that I suggested above. :::::::Re: game as metaphor The avatars could explain it, it's a possibility, but really, it being a metaphor is far more likely. That's simply because, as I said, if the game was real, the whole series of novel would be pointless, as mortals wouldn't be able to influence anything. Even the way it was structured, it's very typical of a metaphor of some kind. :::::::Re: drow/dark elves&faerzress. It still stands that the dark elf are such not only because of the faerzress, but also because of Corellon's curse, which changed their race (so the transformation was not the intended effect of Q'arlynd's spell, the original purpose was different). I also don't agree with the change that made the drow addicted to faerzress, because it makes absolutely 0 sense in the context of the Realms. Surface drow never showed any kind of compulsion to go back to the faerzress. The faerzress was used by the drow out of convenience, as a resource for their magic, in no way that implies a kind of physiological correlation. Also, the drow being addicted to faerzress has been retconned as quickly as it was introduced--Tsammarco (talk) 07:03, December 23, 2018 (UTC) ::::::::Hello Tsammarco, ::::::::I'm sorry for the late reply, I completely underestimated family matters. You got mo convinced. ::::::::Thank you for going along with this lengthy conversation. ::::::::Best regards ::::::::Saya222 (talk) 08:36, December 26, 2018 (UTC) :::::::::Hello Saya, :::::::::I hope that all is well (or at least better) with your family, and wish you a happy holiday season.--Tsammarco (talk) 20:45, December 26, 2018 (UTC) Asking for a Reference Hello Tsammarco, you've probably seen the new edit on the Vhaeraun-article. I made these edits for completion's sake regarding references (and also to adhere to the wiki's canon-policy). I remember that you once told me that there is an official reference regarding this alliance-thing between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. That it stands despite there being this other reference about their opposition. Unfortunately, I can't find it. May I ask you a favor at adding it? Naturally, provided it stands in the canon-hierarchy higher than Szith Morcane Unbound? Best Regards and thank you in advance Saya222 :Hello, Saya :The reference was Ed Greenwood's reply on twitter when I asked him about the matter. I'll try to look for it. Honestly, Idk anymore where it stands in canon hierarchy. Mike Mearls said on Twitter that all AL modules are not to be considered canon (so the Wiki might have to specify that in the pages that include info from AL modules), and MToF says that Eilistraee's position in relation to the other gods of the Dark Seldarine (save for Lolth, which is obviously depicted as her enemy in her entry) is unclear, leaving room for alliances as well as enmities. We might write that some drow believe that Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are no longer enemies and have reached a reciprocal understanding, while others reject that.--Tsammarco (talk) 01:37, March 3, 2019 (UTC) ::Hello Tsammarco, ::always thank you for your swift answers. So it was a twitter reply. That would be below an adventure from the Adventure League according to this wiki's policy. Mr. Mearls's comment sounds interesting, may I have the link to it? I tried to find it myself, but my googling skills aren't good enough. Your suggestion regarding a note sounds quite interesting, do you intend to propose it in the Request-site, so that it becomes applied everywhere like in the Maerimydra-article? ::Regarding MToF's Eilistraee-entry, I think we should be happy that one more relationship, that with Vhaeraun, is clarified. Is probably a bit complicated sue to Mr. Mearls's comment, which you mentioned before. ::Regarding your idea of writing that some drow believe this while others believe that. I would love argue against it. Our sources are Mr. Greenwood "Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are allies", which stands above MToF "Eilistraee and Vhaeraun's relationship is unclear" for that one is non-FR-book, and "Eilistraee opposes Vhaeraun" from the AL-adventure, which stands above Mr. Greenwood's claim of an alliance for it a published adventure. So as the policy stand now, I would suggest to keep it as it is now and simply wait until more material is released over time. ::Best regards and thank you again ::Saya222 (talk) 09:36, March 3, 2019 (UTC) :::I cannot find either tweet at this time (especially because I've got some serious complication with my eyes, so I can't stare at a screen for long). The reason why I proposed to write that some drow believe one thing and others believe another thing is that MToF is not a FR-specific book, but it includes FR info anyway, and it stands above AL (which Mearls doesn't consider official). EG's initial lore about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun having come to a truce is a CK answer, not a tweet; his clarification was a tweet. That said, I won't change the Vhaeraun page, but it'd be nice to hear from some admins about this topic.--Tsammarco (talk) 09:50, March 3, 2019 (UTC) ::::Hello Tsammarco, ::::thanks for clarifying, you're right, it would be good to hear what the administrators have to say about it. I'll look a bit more by myself for the tweets. ::::Best regards and I wish you good health ::::Saya222 (talk) 09:57, March 3, 2019 (UTC) :::::Hello Tsammarco, :::::I found one of the two tweets. The one from Mr. Greenwood. You put it once on the Talk-page of the Church of Vhaeraun-article. Unfortunately, the tweet seems to be deleted. (https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/800564045418000385) :::::Best regards :::::Saya222 (talk) 10:08, March 3, 2019 (UTC) ::::::Thank you for the reasearch and for the good health wishes--Tsammarco (talk) 16:54, March 3, 2019 (UTC) Sources Hello Tsammarco, thank you for looking over the drow-page. However, I needed to revert one part. This one: "Qilué Veladorn, who had taken possess of the Crescent Blade, which had been shattered and then forged into a mere vessel for Wendoani, devised a plan to kill the demon, but was forced to fight against his influence. The balor's presence could be felt when the Dark Sister ordered the death of the defeated clerics of the Revenancer in the Acropolis after the disappearance of their goddess." The reasons for this are the following. First, Qilué had two plans to get rid of Wendonai, one she came up on her own, but which would have resulted in giving herself over to the balor for it had a fatal flaw, which the fiend made her unaware of (page 142), the second plan, the suicidal one, was Eilistraee's wish in Ascendancy of the Last, so and had to actually Eilistraee whether she was serious whether she wanted her to do it (page 145-146). So claiming she "devised a plan to kill the demon" is quite a stretch and not important to the matter at hand, it also makes little chronological sense for she it's not quite clear when she came up with the flawed one and the second one is a product after the massacre against the Crones. Second, the source doesn't say that she was under the influence of Wendonai when she ordered the death of Kiaransalee's followers. Please provide a source that definitely says so, if you that passage included, the cited source merely says that Qilué ordered the death by using her authority and citing that is pure speculation. Best regards and thank you again Saya222 (talk) 20:14, March 10, 2019 (UTC) :Qilué did indeed hatch a plan on her own, though (which had the potential to be suicidal too), and Eilistraee went back on her plan in the end, as she tried to save Qilué and freed her from the demon. That said, thebalor's influence was pretty evident in the books (at times Qilué didn't even realize what she was doing); the mentioned passage doesn't explicitly say that she was under the Balor's influence when she gave the order, but it was pretty clear from the context of the books. That said, I'll trsut you on this one, and leave tings as they are--Tsammarco (talk) 11:03, March 12, 2019 (UTC)